Action and reaction: equal penalty?

Hi all. We played our regional championship on December here in Catalunya (Spain). I was reffing a match when a black player push a white player with both hands to win advantage to receive a puck (they're 2m far from it). The white player reaction was holding him. I saw both actions and I made the call for the first when I see the second.

My question is: what I had to decide? Same penalty for both? Or an action is more punished than a reaction?

At that moment I decided to eject the black player (action) for 2 minutes and the white player (reaction) for 1 minute. Matches were 7 minutes long, so I thought to reduce the usual ejection time so they could play... And I thought the black player decide to make the fault, but the white player just was influenced by the other.

What do you think?

__________________

I think you were told you were wrong. And you would have been told that no matter what you called so don't worry too much about that. Without seeing the foul and without any real detail from you I'll assume that none of the infractions were serious enough to hurt so I would have kicked both out equally. If the grab was a complete wrap around or at the neck/head where breathing becomes an issue, I'd consider 5min or dismissal for the reaction.

My question comes from that you say you reduced the penalties but still gave 2 min for a push.... that seems excessive. You reduced it from a 5?

__________________
And the countdown begins... Ay, ay ay ay, ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay.. Colombia!

Thanks for answer Duck. Yes, infractions were'nt serious to hurt, but I considered the push was worst than the grab because this was done with both hands and voluntarily.

Then, had action and reaction the same level, if the infraction is similar?

__________________

Personally, I'd kick the first guy out 5 minutes flat (or even tottal dismiss him if it was really agressive move), and left the second one in the game, provided he wasnt agressive to the first and as you said it was only a grab, otherwise I'd kick him out for 2 min. I'd also explain to both captains, that deliberate agressive-foults (personaly I hate these most) will not be tolerated , and that next such offence will result in permanent dismissal. If I'd hear so much as a rumble comming out of their mouth in any known or not known language to me, I'd kick that player/s out for a minute. Nazi style.


Nobody likes refferees, everyone needs them. For a ref, there's no win situation. You'll be guilty one way or the other. Just take care you dont loose your authority as a ref, dont let them get to you on the afterparty ;-)

Given it's a 7 minute half I think you made a fair decision.

I *might* have given the time penalties equally but then I didn't see the grab. I certainly think it's fair to give both of them time in the sin bin given what you have described.

5 mins in a 7 minute half? I really would need to see the grab, but that seems a bit excessive for what i'm imagining. Two minutes seems plenty. I'm also thinking the retaliation should probably get the same penalty. When fouls go uncalled and/or retaliation is unpunished that is how games get out of hand.

Yeah, i've seen that and it is just wrong. The party is where its fun happens, if you are still that worked up over the officiating in a game you need to take a break from the game for a while. Even at the worlds level.

__________________
An aquifer is a water bearing layer of rock or soil. Aquifers are separated by impermeable layers of rock or clay called an aquitard. Aquitard, however may sound a bit offensive to some, and therefore we will be changing the name to Aquachallenge.

Hi Guys - yeah, hard to say without seeing it, but depending on what the 'grab' by the 2nd guy looked like, I would probably give both the same time penalty, but play a free puck for the team that was fouled first.

2 min sounds fair because both actions were deliberate.

I will often NOT give a time penalty to an infringed player who looks like he/she is simply trying to protect themselves by holding the 'attacking' player away though. It's really common for a lot of refs to just throw both players involved out - even if the 2nd one isn't SEEN doing anything - and I really hate that! The thought seems to be " well they must have done something, so I'll kick them out anyway" - and that's just wrong if you haven't actually seen a foul!

Cheers, Simon

Hmm... all of the answers seem pretty similar really.

I have been in a pretty similar situation reffing where I saw the foul (though this one was on the player with the puck) and was waving my hand when the second player retaliated by pushing the other player. What I did was:
- Stop the play (of course)
- Give a free puck to the team that was fouled first
- Kick the player who committed the first foul out for 2 minutes (was 30 min game)
- Explain to the player who was fouled that I had seen it, and was calling it. Then give him 2 minutes also for the reaction. This in a loud enough voice that his team know that he reacted and that is why he is going to the bin.
- Reverse the free puck.

Not sure if that is completely according to the book, but there you go.

Kyusap - one thing though: you did well to see the original foul. A lot, an awful lot, of referees are so focused on the puck that they are blind to anything that happens 2 m away from it.
If they got ancy after the game and wanted to argue with you about it, then you should refer them to Duck. He will sort them out.

__________________
Faster than a speeding puck...

"I will often NOT give a time penalty to an infringed player who looks like he/she is simply trying to protect themselves by holding the 'attacking' player away though. It's really common for a lot of refs to just throw both players involved out - even if the 2nd one isn't SEEN doing anything - and I really hate that! The thought seems to be " well they must have done something, so I'll kick them out anyway" - and that's just wrong if you haven't actually seen a foul!"


...so true. it's the same when a ref awards an equal puck because he cant see whats going on. ...something must have happened... i didnt see anything... ok, put my hand up, i am a useless referee, equal puck guys.

same goes for biffing both guys when one obviously was the guy in the wrong... and a lot of the time the other guy is often just pushing away from a guy blatantly fouling him, or trying to work himself free... often while looking around for the ref, like "can you see what this clown just did to me...?" and then finds he's in the sinbin too. not good enough.

__________________
it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench

Agree with all of that rant, and while we are chastising referees, allow me to vent also..

I get pulled up all the time for gloving, when actually I am playing the stick with a vertical stick, usually moving it to my left (I am right handed). This is almost always by the ref behind me and to my right... simply because my glove is between his eyes and the puck, even though I am playing the puck with my stick.

__________________
Faster than a speeding puck...