Action and reaction: equal penalty?

Hi Jols - will make sure I look MUCH harder next time I think you're gloving the puck - I promise! :-)

Re The call you mentioned where you reversed the free puck due to the second foul: I would certainly apply whatever time penalty or warning I thought was necessary to the second player for their retaliation, but I personally would leave the first foul stand (the second one wouldn't have occurred if the first guy hadn't initially infringed).

Also agree with Liam's comments (rant!) - speaking as someone who has been chucked out quite a few times because someone was assaulting me and I wasn't even retaliating!!! Of course - I'm sure 've been thrown out once or twice when I deserved it, too ........!

Cheers, Simon

Sorry, skipped the part where it says 7 minute halfs.
If you make the same penalty for both, and receiving player only makes reflex action, than you really reffing for the agressor team.
About the party... it was intended as a joke. Local games where you reffing your own friends.

Uf! Thanks all for your replies. I understand I had to punish both the same, although I think the same as Flk_d_pk that then the agressor "won". If I hadn't see the agression, he could get the puck; as I saw, both teams then play same way (5 a side for 2 minutes), so he hadn't lose anything... But I made a mistake and he cannot get this... =p

Jols, I know this player, so I kept an eye on him...

Thanks all

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And this is a major problem with refs. Any ref that watches for something from a certain player is not doing a good job. They are, in fact, doing a terrible job. Every game must begin with the ref-vs-players score at 0-0. I don't care how many times you have seen someone grab an opposing stick, glove the puck, or shoot dangerous flicks, you have to go into the game watching everyone equally without discrimination.

It's hard when you see a reaction from someone and in your mind you know something just happened, but you can't make the call. Even when you know that player has a history of fouling in that situation. But you have to see the foul and you have to see it in the context of reffing a game the same way you would ref a game when there are 12 people in the water that you have never seen before.

Anything else is bad for the game

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And the countdown begins... Ay, ay ay ay, ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay.. Colombia!

Funny reading the description of this action/reaction this didn't even come to mind, but is really one of my pet peeves. A year and a half later I am still a touch grumpy about a call that I was sent to the box for trying to just play the puck whilst being assaulted. Of course I was then rewarded with an extra minute of time with my wife on deck, for trying to explain to the referee that made the call what the correct call should have been. I guess she didn't like the explination... or maybe the language I used.

In many ways I agree. However along the lines of what people argued in this thread
Game Ejection Rules
self control should also be expected.

Yeah, i've only seen it a few times, but i have seen it both small tournaments and at worlds where someone just can't let it go. Mix in some alcohol at the after party and you have a confrontation. Just something that has always made me angry.
It can be discussed sure, but keep it civil.
After Party Love.JPG

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An aquifer is a water bearing layer of rock or soil. Aquifers are separated by impermeable layers of rock or clay called an aquitard. Aquitard, however may sound a bit offensive to some, and therefore we will be changing the name to Aquachallenge.

I agree Tuck, but then, I have not seen or heard of anyone really harasing the ref on the party. If this ever happened or will in the future, such player deserves a kick in the butt. And a hard one too.

In regards to reflex actions after deliberate faul has been commited, this should be allowed and tolerated, and let the refferee-in-water make his own decidion if this was reflex, or retaliatorry action. Seems that this approach is the most fair one, at least looks like it to me.

@Duck - professional refferees from other sports not only watch out for individual players, but STUDY their ways. But they separate this "special watching-checking", and the "special penalties for such players". Good refs do not practise the latter.

I agree, and I have seen it happen. I have seen a player verbally abusing a referee at an international tournament continually for 10 minutes or so. This was the day after the game was played that he was angry about, so not emotion at the time the calls were made. I still regret to this day that I did not step in straight away and tell him where to go.

I agree with this also. Any knowledge a ref has about players enables him to ref the game more effectively. How he uses that knowledge will determine whether he is a good ref or not. An example: a player that uses his glove when tackling a player from above... you can pay attention and ensure your position is good to be able to judge any foul if you know he is prone to doing it.

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Faster than a speeding puck...

You may be speaking about me. I probably wouldn't have stopped. My team was trying to get me to quit too. When the ref knows they are wrong but won't admit it and instead says they understand you, they are just flat out lying. If they understood you they would say "Sorry, I was wrong. Now let me explain what I saw/heard/decided so we can figure out where the mistake was made so it doesn't happen again." or something like that. Take Simon for example. While he may never flat out say he's wrong, he will say he may be wrong or he may have missed the call. That's a good start. It gives a chance for a discussion about the call so that everyone can learn. Plus he does it with that damn cute smile.



In a perfect world I would agree too. But refs call things they think they see because they know a player and they expect certain things to happen. As your example of gloving over the top, it becomes expected and when the ref sees the player go over the top, they make the call. But all they saw was that he went over the top, they didn't see the actual infringement (if there was one). I've seen it in this sport on all levels as a ref, as a player, and/or as a coach.

With my frustration with refs that call things like that, I tend to let more go than some would like even though you can see that something happened but you didn't see exactly what it was. Problem with that is then people think you are biased because they only remember the calls missed against them and not the ones they get away with. But I'd rather be that ref than the one that made calls that never happened.

A good ref can take his experience reffing and get thrown into a game with 12 players he doesn't know and get into good position to make the right calls. I've seen that at World's. The ref doesn't have to know the player to be good. And in getting into position for a certain foul, doesn't that potentially remove you from your good positioning for other fouls? Setting up for the one foul creates a narrow focus ref that might never see the offender put his free hand on the defenders hip to slow him down because he is looking for the glove on the tackle. That, to me, is poor reffing.

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And the countdown begins... Ay, ay ay ay, ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay ay.. Colombia!

Whew Duck, here we go:

- No, I wasn't talkng about you. Was at Europeans.. the player/captain was angry because his team lost, and he blamed the ref.

- Until now I have never considered Simon's smile to be cute. I shall henceforth look at it (and you) in another light.

- You make some good points about reffing, and I could dispute some of them but can't be bothered since this is all shades of grey. I guess when it comes down to it everyone has to accept that refs make mistakes, and that they are doing their best. I think some international consistency would not hurt since refs do interpret the rules differently in different regions, but... we are not exactly the only sport that has this problem.

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Faster than a speeding puck...

hmmm are there 2 Rs in that word? anyway, At both 06 and 08 I had players come at me after a game. In 06 a player thot he was 'safe' in doing so. In all situations I listen, with constant eye contact, waving off others who may want my attention. If discussion continues with heat or more heat, I say to player: 'we need to discuss this further but not now. I want to look up rule /issue to be sure of my position, and then we can talk.' In 06 I actually went to coach after game; pointed out to him player's misconception of safety in screaming at a ref once game is one, that I could sit player down for next game - said all very calmly and with out any heat - informational. Player came back 30 minutes later and apologized which I accepted without mentioning issue. It seems to work pretty well especially when I can point out specific rule; if I can't then I say so.

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