Free Subbing at All Times?

fk pk, what you and tuck were proposing are different things. tuck has said players should be allowed to bail out at any time and when entering a given area around the sub bench, say 5m radius, then so long as they are swimming towards the bench they can be counted as subbing.

...this is ridiculously hard to enforce, and if, as tuck suggests its only used when the puck isnt in that zone it just makes things too complicated.

what YOU are suggesting is merely that when players have hands on the side of the pool and intent to get out, the next player can get in... this is a rule thats been played as local rules at many tournaments for years. its a good idea, easy to enforce.

however, its irrelevant when using inwater subs, as the trend seems to be moving towards.

youre right on glove colour of course though.... common sense does need to be used. but then again the talk of red gloves has been around for years and mareh could have looked ahead and seen that one coming too

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it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench

One thing is forum is really good for is rumors: when were you last in US and saw this supposed t-shirt rule? It does not exist. Where ever you read the 'story' that is just what it is - actually a fariy tale. And I have never had a seatbelt ticket as I don't drive without one. The difficulty with common sense is getting everyone to agree on what it is - that is why there are rules.

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Carol Rose

guess what? i agree with Carol. enforceability/recognition by deck refs is the problem with trying to police Tuck's suggestion.
Liam has clearly explained the way i was thinking [but not able to coherently express].
my first thought was: how on earth will this work when play is alongside sub zones?

also i think subbing is a tactical part of the game.
often being able to spot, and utilise, a hole in an opposition's formation whilst a player subs can be the difference between winning and losing a match. allowing a fresh player into play before a tired player leaves the court will take strategic opportunities away from the game.

nice idea having only 3 subs for a 5-man team. will further allow fitness and individual skill [read hard work and preparation] to override thuggery and bashing as a determinant in game outcomes.

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http://snorkelbattlesafari.blogspot.com/

theres a point... allowing quicker subbing in the game will increase the number of bodies on the bottom, which people seem to be against.

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it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench

Fine, I didnt read thorougly the Tuck's post... had in mind my own thing. Thanks for correction Atapene. Still, the liberal approach to subbing should be implied in my view. In Tuck's proposal the solution is to allow maximum number of seconds - eg. 3 sec with less than 4 players on the outside. Simple & clear rule, even for refferees that have trouble thinking for themselve.

Carol, Its clear to me that I mixed US with someone else, and I did wrote "story" so, I'm sorry to drop T-shirts on you. Still, I dont see the need to outlaw the best looking glove. I do a lot of reffereeing, and let me tell you, that Mareh's original glove did not make anyone a problem over here, and there is really a lot of players wearing them now. Anyway, its your countryman that has to wear them in different colour. You know, for the right price, Mareh is able to make them in US national flag colour... but then again... you got red in it. I wonder how would Chineese feel about restriction on red colour, if they would be playing uwh..... or do they already play?

Atapene, about too many bodies underwater.... good luck on 1.9 meters in Durban. I try to stay out, if the game is anywhere near 2 meters. Too much chaos and too many bodies not only on the bottom, but anywhere in the water. Fortunatly we have only one session where half of the playing area is on 2 meters... thats the only place where I get hurt. Good luck to refferees too, dirty game is so easilly hidden. But then, you're right about one thing - it cant be as bad as Bari regarding refs...

yeah too true, it's going to be pretty brutal at times

i think they are able to raise the pool level slightly to make it 2m, i hope they are able to do that.... and adding to the depth, the water in durban is characteristically very murky. i know they have promised to clean the filters before the competition, but who knows whether this will work... last time we were there in 2005, at the start of the practice days the water was pretty nice and clear... then i think on the second morning someone started purging the filters into the main pool and you could see clouds of muck being pumped in.... i have no idea whether that was part of the normal process of the pool but the result was that visibility dropped to a crappy bubbly level for the duration of the comp.

anyway. i'm sure the organising committee have this all in hand.... the water clarity and depth was identical from hobart in 2000 to chch in 2004, and there was a very marked improvement in quality of reffing and a drop in instances of blatant foul-play that i saw.... so i'm sure it won't be back to the "bad old days", if there were any

and also we now have 3 refs and the refs have a system of teamwork they never had before, which i'm sure will help a lot as they all become more used to it.

sidetracking slightly but slovenia are going to euros.... is there much information on the tournament yet, other than the puck? cmas are paying for the room and board of the refs attending the comp, which is good of them.

quickly back to subbing, the time restriction you mention is a good solution to that problem.... would certainly make it a lot easier for refs. however, for the other reasons others have described, i personally dont think we should loosen things to such an extent... and man wouldnt that make it hard on the players. imagine a player in the suns bin seeing a guy swimming towards him, jumping out, having that player rejoin the play or not make it to the bin in time.... whew it would get dicey. and it would complicate too as it would only allow one sub at a time, or a couple and then team would have to wait for all 4 heads to pop up before anyone else can go... quite hard to visualise actually

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it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench

I see... back to the future, all is well, there's no need to change anything, nicely put! French are really strong on 2 meters. You're talking fairytales atapene... 2 meter deep pool, with low visibillity water and everything will be just perfect !?!?

About euro championship...
My team, unfortunatly and to my big dissapointment is going nowhere.
In Istambul, there is 2.4 meters deep pool, dunno about water viz. Refferees are payed 250 eur for their work, witch helps them pay the costs, but 250 doesnt cover them all. Still, thats a big improvement over past years, but in the same does not guarranty that reffing will be on best level. My friend Ales, has been given the responsabillity as tournament manager, so at least the tournament will flow nicely and up to standards... as long as nobody will try to operate on top of Ales, and if he'll be able to do his job like he wants it. My new reff system is not going to be used on EC and not on worlds. Turkish found it too expencive, Durban wanted it, but I got over my head with production of fins, and lacked time to finnish it like it should be done. I'm not sure if the Turkish intend to copy my experimental unit, or they will go with siren-gong.
But thats not what this thread is about... i'm just breefing atapene on ec, thats it!

the turks have some uw rugby style buzzers hooked up to car batteries.... maybe they will have big beefed up versions of these for the champs?

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it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench

Umm... why do we have subs anyway?

What is there to stop us removing them altogether?

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Faster than a speeding puck...

Jols, its a very good point!

We might eliminate them all together, therefore the team with most fit players is sure to win.... thats if we want uwh to be so extremly dependant on physical condition. Though this wont solve the issue of "too many bodies underwater", but it will help if combined with 5vs5 gameplay.

On a personal note...what made me love the game of UWH was teamplay and skills, not the UBER hard core apnea!