Thoughts on the 'extended finger'?

Hi Folks, and before I get the comments, no - the title doesn't mean what you do to Referees who's calls you dislike! :-)

I'd be very interested in people's opinions on the following:

If you have been playing for a while, especially at a high level, I suspect that at some stage most of you will have had someone swerve (or dummy, or feint, or whatever you want to call it) past you with the puck guided against their outstretched forefinger.

If you look at rule 14.1.2 - vol 2: "Only the “playing area of the stick” may be used to move the puck. The “playing area” is that area of the stick which is not covered by the player’s hand when the stick is gripped in a natural manner excluding any part of the stick which extends past the protected little finger";

Because of this rule, when seen, this action has traditionally been called as an infringement (advancing the puck with something other than the stick). Having said that - it's REALLY hard to see most of the time unless you are in exactly the right position (looking down the line of the stick, or having it done to you as an opposing player!).

Further to the above, while refereeing at the Australian Nationals recently, and pulling up lots of people for this (sorry Sophia!), plus watching a very good Barbarians vs Australian Open squad game (no refs), it was quite striking how well the people who were doing this managed to avoid getting 'beaten up', compared with the people who didn't. It really did allow players to get away from the melee that forms when the defender does 'intercept' them. This was particularly noticeable in the BaBa's vs Aust game as there were no refs so players knew they could get away with it!!! :-)

What I was wondering is what people think of the idea of legalising playing with an extended forefinger to facilitate more open play!? Revolutionary, I know, but I personally think we do need some way of trying to open play up more, and this might go part of the way towards doing it? Alternatives would to go to deeper water, or 5 players per side!? :-) Both of which I've suggested before!

Downsides: More broken fingers? Can't think of many others, except that it detracts from the ability of the people who HAVE worked to develop a really good swerve (which would be as good a reason as any not to do it perhaps?). Having said that - many (though not all) of the people regarded as having great swerves actually do this most of the time! :-)

Comments welcome. I have no position on this (apart from as someone who probably calls it up more than most people!). Am genuinely interested in everyone's comments.

Cheers,

Simon

That's exactly what I've been saying (and attacked for saying) for ages!

I personally have never felt too bad about using the old first knuckle to push the puck sideways because it seems like a ridiculous distinction between such subtle variations in how you hold your stick (note that you are currently allowed to move the puck sideways with your finger as long as its tightly wrapped around your stick, which can be achieved by a funny shaped handle or a massive knuckle on your glove). I also think that what you do to the puck is far less important than what opposition players do to your body (excepting extreme circumstances such as picking the puck up) and gets far too much attention from referees. Gloving is just so easy to see and call, but use of the free arm or even being grabbed off the puck isn't.

As far as reforming the rule goes, it would be hard write a rule to allow use of the fingers in the way that currently occurs anyway as you point out, but which disallows fully outstretched fingers or actual grabbing of the puck. But hey, if you can think of a way for me to be allowed to do what I allegedly might do occasionally, .... but never get caught for...

On second thoughts, don't bother

First of all, Nicky, the rule does not allow for that. As Simon pointed out you must play it with the playing area of your stick. The puck may rest against your finger, not be propelled by it. What has happened is that people are doing it and the refs are not calling it. Part of that is that the ref shouldn't make calls that are perceived infractions. The refs should make calls they see. This one, however, can be (I don't know about should be or actually is) perceived acurately. As a right-handed player is coming up the pool he comes up against an opponenet and quickly moves his whole hand/stick/puck left without dipping his stick back to allow the puck to get moved by his stick rather than his glove. I know in this situation it is fast and difficult and real easy to say "so what". But now put that same move on the right wall and have the guy move the puck up the wall using his stick strictly as a tool to keep the puck against the wall and the glove as the propulsion to move the puck along the wall. A bit different? Not at all. It just is a bit more obvious along the wall. Changing this rule opens up that and I don't think that encouraging a wall game with this rule is any way to open up the game.

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Simon, this is old school at best. We still have guys that do this from back in the brass puck days.

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Just in case you weren't sure, it's official -- CMAS sucks.
Oh yeah, and now they're broke.

I meant 'revolutionary' in the sense that we could talk about the merits of legalising it, not that people have only just started doing it! :-)

Duck - I agree that you definitely wouldn't want running the puck up the wall leg against the finger legalised, as that definitely will NOT do anything fo an open game, but if the rules could be worded in such a way as to allow for a swerve, then you might be able to do it.

Again - don't really mind either way. I simply noticed that:

1. Players doing it are much more easily able to avoid getting 'bogged down' in melees - which helped the game flow better; and

2. It happens a LOT in elite games, and is very rarely called (and I suspect very rarely seen). The people that do it are usually very good at it, and do it very quickly. In games I referee, I suspect I'd be lucky to call it 5% of the time it occurs in my view, for various reasons. One of those is that although I'm often 90% sure that someone (e.g. Nicky!) has done it (because their swerve was so awesome!), I didn't clearly see it, so I can't call it! Also, it's often done under the body.

Might not be wanted by the majority, or possible to write up effectively, but keep the comments coming! :-)

Simon you have me oooh so conflicted. I've worked very hard since 2002 to change these things in my game and I'm not sure I could go back to using that finger , ok so i'm sure I could adapt pretty quick, but i've been trying hard for 6 years to NOT do it and scolding my teammates who do!

Also then what about the thumb when the puck is on the back of the stick? Same deal as the finger out front.

Just not sure how to word this in the rules to make this much leagal but still keep gloveing in general, especially the push up the wall doug is talking about, illeagal.

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ahh keep it illegal, learn to swerve properly (reece lol)

it's like saying lets make something legal because it makes the game easier to play - it's easy to keep the puck on your stick without a finger anyway

theres no place in the game for little fingers being stuck out... this is basically a shortcut by players who dont have the inclination to develop their skill level to control the puck properly. i dont see this used so much just while swerving but all around the pool to control the puck... its lazy and if you legalise it, what incentive is there to develop your skill level when you can just stick a finger out? i certainly dont think an extended finger should be legal.

i like the rules as they are now, definitely the interpretation on the wall is good... not that many refs call it correctly, still. of all the refs at the recent nationals maybe simon and possibly ray called gloving on the wall correctly in my games when players were advancing with their glove and controlling with the stick... most of it was just let go and only when the glove touched by itself was a call made. refs need to look closely at the differences in playing the puck on the wall and get up to speed as its very frustrating for players trying to play legally.

the interpretation for swerving with the finger i think is bogus. as soon as you allow the puck to rest on the glove while touching the playing area, there is immediate force applied on the puck from the glove. the question is, a little or a lot? its rubbish that a ref can sit there and expect players to believe him/her when he/she says "i deem that swerve to have used a bit too much force from the finger"... when the swerve happens so fast the player themselves couldn't have told you if it did or not. essentially that turns into "that swerve was so good and fast, it must have been illegal"... which is absolutely rubbish, and i've been called for that a couple of times... but only ever by one ref.

the simple fact is, in that situation you have control of the puck, you are moving the puck while still playing it with your playing area, as has been mentioned it's an open, clean move which is regarded by most as one of the more skilled and certainly least fouling aspects of the game.... why should a good sidestep be penalised? remember that if a player were to try to sidestep using only the glove, they would fail.... the playing area must be utilised for it to be effective. i think personally the issue is a storm in a teacup.

don't penalise swerves in that instance as the playing area is integral to the skill.... don't stick your fingers out and cheat. easy. rules stay the same, interpretations just need clearing up, perhaps a couple of example scenarios could be added to the reffing manual, one on the wall and one during a swerve, and refs can form interpretations in between for themselves?

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Interestingly, I get called for this quite a lot. Annoyingly, I get called for it when the puck hasn't gone anywhere near touching my fingers, but the fingers are out so the ref assumes I've used them. For a lot of my dummies, especially the slower ones, I relax the thumb allowing it to bend back which changes the angle of the stick from coming straight out of my hand to being about 45 degrees back. Great for controlling the puck, but the shape of the hand no longer looks like a fist, it's quite relaxed and open, and even though the stick is still against the back of the fingers it looks like your fingers are poking out. Hmm, maybe I should post a picture for this. Will be interested to know peoples thoughts on the legality.

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I mostly agree with the above. If you're sticking your fingers out enough to get seen then that is way too much. The way I play is with a fairly relaxed grip on my stick, which might become sliiiightly more relaxed at certain times. And I don't really think the gloving down the wall thing has anything to do with this. Sure you sort of do the same thing, by pushing with your index finger, but the two situations are pretty different eh???