Research on Breathing muscle resistance training

Yeah Nat, no doubt the resistence training improved their measurements. But what sort of training were they doing before that to help with their breathing? I would guess none, or very close to it, so of course they are going to improve. And when you use the right tool you get the job done faster so with the resistence training they reached a higher level faster. The Elite UWH players I know do sprint underwaters, duration underwaters, drops where you go down and push everything out so that you are standing on the bottom as fully exhaled as you can, use diaphragm breathing with slow and full inhales and exhales, and also play games where you don't have the luxury of thinking about it. Surely in that mix we as a community do far more resistence training than your standard swimmer when it comes to breathing so the impact for us would be minimal.

But with that aside, the argument that working at it is critical. I may not have been clear in my example so let me give you this example which is similar to the test with the resistence stuff. I could take two B-level hockey and put them into two programs where they train the exact same amount of time everyday and they would get different results on their improvement. Give one the right tool, a high level squad, 11 others who are better than him to train with, and give the other an inferior tool, a predominately recreational group, 11 players that are worse than him to train with. It's simple who will improve the most.

I'm not saying don't try, I think it could be great for people who need something to help them. Just as I believe that dryland puck work has huge benefits for people that don't have the pool time to play everyday. But if you are already in the water manipulating pucks 4-6 times a week and have many years experience, the benefits of dryland puckwork are minimal. It would be most beneficial as something to maintain what you already have. And that's the way I see the breathing resistence.

Duck

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good shot duck.

Doug, Doug, Doug...
You need to take an exercise physiology class. There is a difference between resistance TRAINING and endurance. training and playing are two different things also. Also try reading the actual study, not pulling hypothetical situtions out of your ass. Learn some science.

Brian

So explain it Brian. Obviously my troll size brain can't comprehend exercise physiology, but my duck sized brain using simple physics tells me that your snorkle provides resistence so that everytime we breathe either in or out we get a bit of work with resistence training. Unless you are always in slow breathe mode.

Duck

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Oh yeah, and now they're broke.

And once again this was a randomised controlled trial so your examples, as Brian pointed out, do not relate to the study we're discussing.

Also the snorkel example. A snorkel definately provides resistance. Absolutely no where near 50cmH20. Brian, as a man with experience of CPAP at 12cmH2O (not mmHg as you stated) knows that CPAP is much harder than a snorkel to breath out of but easier to breath in with. I also know that there's a massive difference.

So I imagine the difference between snorkel and 50cmH2O is a bit like me saying I've been doing arms at the gym today because I've lifted my coffee mug a few times.

The argument I think you're trying to make is based on sample selection. I agree that the magnitude of the effect will probably be different in elite highly trained underwater hockey players than in recreational swimmers. But again it's an RCT that seems to be reasonably controlled. So the effect will surely be smaller in elite UWH players but it might still be significantly better than what you do already. Brian pointed this out with his 3-4% argument.

Atapene. My side, remember? You Stirrer, you. (we used to be teammates and flatmates)

I agree with Nat, not because i understand half of what he says, but he usually is right with stuff like this...nod and smile, nod and smile

damned with faint praise.

I agree with Nat because I do understand what he says

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A couple more points to clarify the training effect ( I am not convinced it will work yet but...)
In my college SCUBA class we tried breathing with a 20" snorkle to demonstrate the effect of water pressure this happens to be 50.8 cm. It was impossible to breath with underwater (less than 50cm given some is sticking out of the water) I believe in the original study they worked with the resistance for 10min per day.

Another variable that is not taken into account is the efficiency of a high level swimmer player. Their ability to move through the water with less effort is very obvious over an untrained swimmer/ hockey player. Given that the high level players wether training or playing may not be pushing their breathing muscles to the same degree. If you practice running/swimming a mile every day you get really good at a mile but after a while your body does not continue to adapt and grow because it is not being challenged any more. So it may be that there would be greater improvements in highly trained athletes who have never used a resistance breathing device/ program

I dont Know we can only guess. (And doug might be r... sorry, I can't say it)
I just love the Science
Brian[/i]

B_Tuck,

you might want to go really simple and explain adaption to training stress, homeostatis, hyper adapt ion etc.

That simple concept is key to the discussion and it's being missed.

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