2008 CMAS European Championships

I think I can see through the flames - wow - tell us what you really think of me! In order of presentation:

Pierre may speak fairly good English, but his comprehension is bad to awful. At a meeting last fall, he was asked a very simple question in English - it was a simple sentence, not compound or complex. He grossly misanswered 3 times. Finally someone in the room asked the question in French - we got an answer.

Mistakes - yes some were made. We acknowledge we went about the CAS case wrong; if we had done it another way, we'd have won the case. Never said we were perfect. But I do not acknowledge any mistakes in any other 'legal perspectives.'

Romain says I enjoy a lack of democracy/transparency - I object strongly. The commission meetings are open to all. The minutes are available to all. I suppose I am sorry Romain is not convinced by my answers to his questions, but I did anwer, and the answers are mine.

I believe Romain is incorrect when he says CMAS doesn't care, but if CMAS doesn't care, that is ok by me. I also do not believe anyone owns any rules to any sport - who owes the rules to soccer?

CMAS is stiffling our sport - I have, on several occasions, pointed out the problems and concerns I have.

I believe I have creditability. I have been to all WCs excepting 3 (1980, '86, '88). I have been active in USOA uw hockey since 1978. I have been commission secretary since 1990. I have been an international referee since 1996 and worked all WCs 1996 to current; I have refed Euros 2003, So Hemispheres 2005, 2007. I have attended all CMAS meetings since 1991.

Now then, Romain and I could go back and forth, tennis match style, and take up your time and forum space. Waste for everyone, so I declare I am finished answering him. If he wishes to 'talk' to me, use private message or my email: croseusoa@aol.com

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Carol Rose

So Carol what is next? Two separate organisations? Two different World Championships? Do you see any way that a compromise may be reached?
What do you think will happen to UWH in the future? Sorry for the 20 questions. I am interested in your POV on the future of UWH

hey it's only 6 questions ... I would guess there will be two organizations. This is not unheard of in international sport. Karate is currently in same situation. It will be interesting to see if another CMAS Games are held - I 'hear' the finances were not good.

As I've said many times before, compromise takes two, and CMAS will not talk to us, individually or as group. We have offered, we were there. I imagine the next CMAS Board meeting (22 Sept) will see some resolution on their part.

Future? I hope and believe all will continue with new organization. The highest ranking countries are likely the base of the new entity: 7 of top 9 with France and Colombia being uncertain. I am working as hard as I can to help make all this happen.

Our new organization will be democratic; CMAS is a dictatorship thinly disguised. when was the last time, if ever, the Board went against the president and/or sec general? Well, never. Can two persons be right all the time? I don't think so - only the Pope is seen, by some, as infallable.

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Carol Rose

deperone,

Wow so mysterious.
Is this where you're at?

http://www.ip-adress.com/details.php...dWdWMyeGhibVE9

Most people here do identify themselves as that is normal social behaviour.
Oh well have your fun.

__________________
Slayer of Trolls amongst other things.
Made for the Love of a Good Woman, and not a bad little player too ;-)
Chumba Concept Salon
Professional Hair Stylist

Carol,

can you use the "Quotation" button when posting please. It's hard to read if you just copy and paste.

__________________
Slayer of Trolls amongst other things.
Made for the Love of a Good Woman, and not a bad little player too ;-)
Chumba Concept Salon
Professional Hair Stylist

I would guess there will be two organizations. This is not unheard of in international sport. Karate is currently in same situation. It will be interesting to see if another CMAS Games are held - I 'hear' the finances were not good.
[/quote]

Carol, I honestly hope you don't consider this to be the best thing for the sport.
Yes karate has also a lot of split-ups, but have you talked to many karatekas lately? They don't like the situation at all.
As is often the case, and in my opinion also here, the split up is caused by a lack of communication and a clash of egos.

As for deeperone's comments on a buddy forum. I don't know how you treat your friends, but I am honest and straight forward with all them. That should be possible between friends, and sometimes you can just agree to disagree.

As for standing on your own feet and paying for everything yourself, are you than talking about players, or total investment? Surely you agree sending players to the worlds is one thing, but there is also promotion of the sport, courses etc.
And I don't know the situation in Australia, but in Europe, if you want to be taken seriously by any major sponsor or so, you have to be recognized, at least by your own governement. In Belgium, you therefore have to be recongnized by your NOC.
We are currenlty trying to develop a professional structure in Belgium, where you have trainers courses recognized by the governement etc. You need that if you want people to start taking you seriously.
Money has never been the first driver, the interest for the sport and to grow it, but you need the recognition and also...the money

[quote=CarlK;3897]Carol,

can you use the "Quotation" button when posting please. It's hard to read if you just copy and paste.

Actually I just figured that out, but given the length of Romain's message, it was a toss up.

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Carol Rose

quote about having 2 international federations:

Carol, I honestly hope you don't consider this to be the best thing for the sport.
Of course not, but what do you/anyone suggest? how do you change/work with a dictatorship? There is only one sided communication which is not communication at all. do you agree with the CMAS regulations on divisions, on age, on hosting WC, etc? were the CMAS Games a successful uw hockey event? will it always be in Europe? will it be limited to 8 elite mens and womens teams only? qualify by region? ok - 1 from Oceania, 1 from Africa, 2 Americas, 1 Asia, 3 Europe. so who comes? Australia or NZ? so who comes from Asia? Japan, Singapore or Philippines? who comes from Americas: Canada, Argentina, Colombia or US? who comes from Europe? GB, France, Holland, Hungary, Spain, Italy, etc.

I believe we had a successful system with increasing participation, and CMAS shut it down.


And I don't know the situation in Australia, but in Europe, if you want to be taken seriously by any major sponsor or so, you have to be recognized, at least by your own governement. In Belgium, you therefore have to be recongnized by your NOC. [/quote]

As I said (again and again), situation varies with each country. My US government does not deal with sport in any aspect excepting concern, recently, with substance abuse in prof sport. And being a member of USOC is nice to put on stationery.

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Carol Rose

Yes, every country is different, so why take the wind out of the sails of countries that do need the recognition. And let's face it, when searching for potential sponsors, having the USOC on your stationery can only contribute to proving this is a serious sport. The same goes for getting media coverage.

I was objecting to the comment implied that if a country just 'tried harder' they could achieve funding. We, my federation, attend all USOC meetings, and we know current situtation in our country. I was not saying others shouldn't try - of course they should, but research, contact and communication will get them on top of their situation.

To join our NOC required application, presentation at several membership committee meetings (by travel to other states for those meetings), alteration of our bylaws to meet NOC requiremets and fending off objections and veto by US Swim who saw us as competition for their funding.

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Carol Rose

Quote from Fred

Every dictatorship can be overthrown by using the right technique and power of the people. You have tried several ways, but haven't found the right way yet. There are a lot of specialised people on this forum. We have lawyers, communication specialists, marketeers, ICT specialists etc. When all these people put their brains together, something strong has to come out of it.

So I take it you are offering to organise all these people and organise them to do what exactly? The interesting thing about these forums is that people choose to either ignore what those in the know say or just maybe have a poor English comprehension.

How do you intend to influence CMAS? From what Carol Rose wrote it would appear that at any given CMAS meeting you may have five people who represent hockey, I would also imagine that if you were not an official representative then you would not be able to speak,(maybe Carol or WTD could confirm this)

Maybe the Belgium federation could pay for all those interested to go and flood the CMAS meeting then we could tell them exactly what we think.

Anyway I am sure they will listen to you if they will let you in, even when they don't listen to their own hockey people, not.

Quote from Fred,

Seen the circumstances it wasn't that bad. Main reason why it wasn't a success was the lack of teams and poor organization. Now that CMAS knows how difficult is was, I think they'll be more open for advice next time. Especially when everybody aligns on what to say.

Once again do people actually read the posts here, WTD said one of the reasons they would not support Bari is because it was not possible to have it organised well in a city with no hockey infrastructure and where they had never seen the venue. Guess what it was poorly organised, He also said that there was no way in the allotted time that you could host a proper tournament.

You say there was not enough teams so with 2 more teams being the 8 that CMAS would have allowed then would it have been a success, hmm those commission people were right again.

Tell me why do you think CMAS will be more open to advice? who do you think is going to advise them as the people who know what is needed are walking away. It seems pretty clear from what I have read here is that the last thing that will happen is CMAS taking advice.

The one thing that seems to stand out here is that you think you can press the CMAS board but nowhere do you say how you will do this, you also imply that they are reasonable people, well if they were I am sure that hockey would not be walking away.

People keep saying that no one will compromise, then I have read 8 times that CMAS wont talk to the commission and the commission have tried every avenue to get talks going with CMAS but CMAS refuse. Seems to me from all the comments that I have read CMAS are 100% at fault and it is not a clash of egos as some would have us believe. The commission have wanted to sit down and talk where is the ego there.

I think you are living in a dreamworld if you think you are going to be able to rationalise with CMAS from what others here have said, and we all know about power to the people just by the dictatorships that have lasted for 30 years or more right around te globe. Maybe we should wait 30 years for CMAS to change, but alas by then there will be no sport at all to worry about.

VIVA THE REVOLUTION

Later Gator