2008 CMAS European Championships

Being in charge of the accountancy of the Belgium team since 3 years, I can provide you with the figures of our costs for : Marseille EURO; Sheffield WORLD; Bari CMAS GAMES.

1. Marseille EURO
Two teams: 18 players
Total Budget: 12.287€
Fed/IOC: 5000€ (38%)
Players: 5925€ (45%)
Private Sponsoring: 2097€ (16%)
For a total of 13.022€ (100%)
(Benefice for this activity)
Note:
CMAS Fees = 115€
Organisation subscriptions fees = 1000€ per team


2. Sheffield WORLD
One teams: 12 players
Total Budget: 17.403€
Fed/IOC: 7500€ (48%)
Players: 3850€ (25%)
Private Sponsoring: 4046€ (26%)
For a total of 15.396€ (100%)
(No benefice for this activity. Deficit supported by T-shirt sells)
Note:
CMAS Fees = 115€.
Organisation subscription fees = 1802,75€ per team.
Open Elite Men 10 official games: 17403€/10 = 1740,3€ per game.

3. Bari CMAS GAMES
Two teams: 26 players
Total Budget: 23.329€
Fed/IOC: 12.900€ (49%)
Players: 7700€ (30%)
Private Sponsoring: 5350€ (21%)
For a total of 25.950€ (100%)
(Benefice for this activity)
Note:
CMAS Fees + Organisation subscription fees = 1000€ per team
Open Elite Men 8 official games: (23.329€/2 = 11.664,5€) 11.664€/8= 1458€ per game.

In an UWH international competition perspective, we are of course very lucky to live in Europe and we do realize that things are probably easier for us than they are for other countries.


Regarding IOC:
But funding via IOC is not a rumor. I am very sorry to read that someone’s efforts with their local IOC have been unsuccessful. But it is not because someone have (temporary perhaps?) failed that this solution can be neglected (for example: UWH in Slovenia has been granted for the first time this year by its local IOC).

Regarding CMAS fees
CMAS registration fees are 115€ per team per competition.
CMAS UWH Card cost 3,10€ per player = 37,2€ per team of 12 players.
So CMAS receives 152,2€ per Team.

It is perhaps too much but what about the registration fees asked by the organisators?

In Sheffield, for example, those fees were of 1802,75€ per team and 666€ for the final party... Of course this aspect doesn't challenge the fantastic organization of Sheffield WORLDS, neither the wonderful time we had there.


Regarding Sheffield example
There were 48 teams in Sheffield = 86.532€
43 were at the final party = 28.638€
A budget of 115.170€ (plus sponsoring and 247TV deal)

In this context, I thought it was legitime to see the accountancy of Sheffield WORLDS. Apparently I was just wrong.

I've called WTD in Australia several times, I've contacted Neil, Carol, Ulysse, Allun no one has ever been able to show the affectation of Sheffield's budget. Also, people in charge in French and Dutch federation have not seen it.

As long as I don't see those figures, I don't get any value to the statement that CMAS is stealling us.



Regarding UWH costs in general
Cost of travel across the world seems to be one of the major financial burdens (somebody has also mentioned the ecological impact of UWH players traveling worldwide). Would it be really impossible to organise ourselves more efficiently regarding transport? NZ will always be on the other side of earth. Can't we rationalize it to put every team transport budget in a common fund and equalize those costs between all participant teams? Transport of the team holding the title of World Champion and the one of the youngest team could be supported by the community.

Regarding Durban Event
Ther are no doubts that it will be a fantastic event, that the games will be great, that every UWH player on earth should attempt this event with or without funding. Unfortunately legal uncertainty around this event is definitively too high to jeopardize player’s money going there.

Regarding the future
Tan’s analyze is good. UWH is currently in a really bad situation and the future doesn’t looks better at all.

We can only hope that the same people will not stay for ever at the same places.


Romain

uh huh ...... only CMAS is unwilling to compromise, negoiate, etc. UW Hockey Commission more than willing, offered on numerous occasions, were available for face to face in May ....... never happened ........frustrating?? you bet.

__________________
Carol Rose

So Carol what is next?
Two separate organisations? Two different World Championships? Do you see any way that a compromise may be reached?
What do you think will happen to UWH in the future?
Sorry for the 20 questions. I am interested in your POV on the future of UWH.

I am sure the countries that went to Bari get funding, hey that's why they were there. That must mean that the other 19 countries who are members of the commission don't so that is why they were not there, you do the maths seems to me that you are a minority.

OK as Tan correctly says we all go to the CMAS games and the six countries that went in 2007 cant go because you wont qualify, see it you think its all warm and cosy then being involved in CMAS.

All the other countries have gone along just fine without IOC funding, well minority why cant you. If Spain and Belgium stand on their own 2 feet and get on board with the WAA then there is no split and we all benefit.

Looks to me as my first observation was right you want to stay with CMAS because of the money. Be like the majority, use your own funds, your own ingenuity and your own heart. be part of the solution not the problem.

Just had a look at the CMAS web site, the Secretary General of CMAS is from Belgium. I bet he will give you whatever you want so you will stay loyal, you gents should be really putting the squeeze on him right now as they prepare to battle the WAA, could be very lucrative. I think I am beginning to understand why you are so pro CMAS, but then I could just be mistaken.

Later Gator

deeperone,

Hmm... you're beginning to sound very familiar to me?
I notice your writing style is strangely reminisant of another. And becoming more so with every post.

You haven't introduced yourself anywhere. So how about doing so now?

I see your IP Address is from Victoria, Australia. So we probaly know you right?

__________________
Slayer of Trolls amongst other things.
Made for the Love of a Good Woman, and not a bad little player too ;-)
Chumba Concept Salon
Professional Hair Stylist

Pierre Dernier is indeed Belgian. Like Rogge, the President of IOC, is also if deeperone wants to go further into his conspiracy theory.

Neither Fred or myself have never met him before Graham asked us to do so after Sheffield into Bari and the CAS context.

We have wasted in vain hours trying to improve dialogue between Graham and Pierre.

Nothing positive came out of this, just bitterness from&for both sides.

Pierre is a surgeon. He speaks french, dutch, italian, spanish and english. He seems to have some difficulties to understand what Graham and Carol want. Which say something about his hability to take in consideration what they say but also say something about Graham and Carol's communication skills. They have really saddly missed an interpret in key situations.

In a subjective (the "heart" that deeperone seems to value so much) point of view, I will of course support Graham and Carol who seems to care about UWH, who are able to expose endless what they believe is right and who have achieved so much great results (like Sheffield WORLDS).

Still in a rational point of view, I can only regret the incredible amount of mistakes commited by Graham and Carol in a legal perspective, I have to regret the lack of democratcy and transparency (which Carol seems to enjoy) in the commission, the unprofessional way it "works" and I have to regret the lack of ambition they have for our sport, or their severe inability to share their vision of the future. I've wrote this several times to them and their answers have never convinced me.

The worst in this situation is that CMAS doesn't care about them at all and Graham and Carol are fighting with a ghost (Which is of course extremely frustrating for sure and make them right in a sad way).

CMAS is not fighting with WAA members and as far it even hardly had to react to WAA ridiculous attacks (CAS, photo copyright infringment, etc...).

But it does not mean that CMAS will never do so into the future. In this context there is only one way to balance the forces: WAA needs to be assisted by somebody with a legal baground. I've sent hundreds of emails to Graham and Carol regarding that, I've called Graham several times. I've even given them names of lawyers specialised into Sport law.

I don't understand why they don't consult a lawyer before taking decisions (CAS, the Aquathing, WACA, WAA, counterfeiting CMAS UWH rules, etc...) that are so important for so many players worldwide. I don't understand how "love" (like deeperone love's for Carol for example) or irrational "faith" can make anyone accept and follow this.(ignorance?)

Will you accept to be tended by an architect after a car crash accident (even if he has a great internet connection and he can consult wikipédia)?

Some of us believe that they have found their "Moïse" and they are forcing the rest of us to join for a walk into the desert.

I don't see any issue and I believe we are going nowhere.

Romain

regarding Olympics stuff. Any of you ever been to your national Olympic meetings? hmmmmm, just as with CMAS stuff, you have never seen, likely you've not seen Olympics up close and personal. When USOA was first voted in to USOC, I attended meetings; now my fed secretary, who is our fin swimming director, attends. (I do CMAS; he does USOC) Used to be annual big USOC meeting; now quarterly Board meetings only.

Federations such as mine or yours do not belong to IOC - Internat Olympic Committee. They belong to their NOC - national olympic committete - in my case, USOC. International Federations belong to IOC.

In each country there are differences I am sure whether it is funding, membership, titles, meetings, etc.

In US, in 1976, our Congress gave all control of amateur athletics to USOC - stopping a battle between USOC and AAU (amature athletic union). The NGBs - national governing bodies - for Olympic/Pan Am Sports now control the moneys. Not an olympic/pan am sport, no money. Between 1984 and Salt Lake Winter Olympics, there was some funding available for acknowleged non olympic/pan am sports - ie fin swimming - but that is now gone.

After the scandal at Salt Lake, USOC changed tremendously - Congress threatened to recind the authority! got their attention you bet!

The NGBs guard their status and funds closely. None of the uw sports are on the IOC radar except fin swimming, and it is only a blip. President IOC has said NO new summer sports. Best way now to get in is to be part of an accepted NGB (ie FINA, world swimming); then the NGB can try to add the discipline.

Exhibition sports were discontinued after Barcelona. Used to be each Olympic host could add 2 sports of their choice - no longer. Not allowed.

And as I said, I believe requirements for new sport just to be considered is 75 countries at WC.

CMAS, I believe, gets a small amount of money from IOC which it is supposed to use for fin swimming; but that may be gone with changes.

If you want to know more about how Olympics work, go to their web site and read their bylaws and stuff.

__________________
Carol Rose

hello Carl, you don't know me and I don't know you so that settles that. Obviously from your post you think I am somebody you know, well rest assured I am not.

The reason I am here is one that you wouldn't even contemplate, you are right I am in Victoria but it is not where I am from.

I don't see any need to identify myself as this is a forum for discussion so who I am is really irrelevant, mind you this forum does seem to becoming a buddies forum and if you challenge anyone then there is an immediate flow of venom rather than considered opinion.

One other thing I find interesting is your insistence that you have no vested interest, yet you make comment frequently, married to an Australian player and constantly interject into discussions with vitriol that is only in the buddy realm.

The main reason I will not state who I am, (and if I did the interest would not even be existent) is that from what I have seen no body here attacks people they know, so for me it is better to be not known and get some honesty in to the arguments as friendship alters the course.

Rest assured Carl at some stage you will find out why I am here.

Let the attacks begin,

Later Gator

this message was mainly about finances. Nowhere in any rules is the event host required to announce their accounts.

Comment regarding regisration fees for Sheffield: WC Registration/entry fees must cover pool rental, food for referees, room rental for meetings, up front costs to manufacturer goods for sale, mailing, printing, program, $1700 E to CMAS, support (accommodation and food and transport) for commission president, tournament director, chief referee and CMAS representative, av costs and technician salary, medals for non CMAS divisions, rental/purchase of flags, etc. This I know as I did all this in 1998 when USOA hosted WC.

As I said previously today, each country is different in their relationship with their NOC. In US, no money no way no how. To say 'try harder' is nice but until you know the specific circumstances, it is all sound.

__________________
Carol Rose