Juniors at worlds

Thought i might pick up on a thread of discussion in the worlds post regarding juniors at worlds. As this also seems to be one of the points of difference between CMAS and Aqua Challenge signalling it out for some discussion might be beneficial.

How quickly you rush juniors into representing their country or competing at an elite level has been a constant note of contention. I played three years of junior southern hemispheres and enjoyed everyone of them, meeting some great people and learning what is required to perform at an international level, as a result I am probably a better player for it.

The flip side is that for every one or two players that come through the junior ranks their seem to be a dozen or so that you never see again, burnt out and dissinterested in going further as they have already in their eyes reached the pinacle of the sport.

A good uwh player can play for 14+ years at elite level if they have the motivation and then if they are still keen, keep playing in masters. This is plenty of time to experience a world championship, without needing to play juniors. As an amatuer sport this can also become a fairly expensive excercise both for the players and in some juniors case their parents.

The second point is that at U19's the top players should already be pushing for selection in the mens and womens team. Having juniors can act as a disincentive to push yourself further. i.e. you can do a little bit of training, make a national team and be the best player in the team or you can work your butt off to try and make the elite level. Too many players take the easy option, stunting their progress and shielding them of the reality of elite level hockey.

While this may be a fairly elite centered view, when it comes down to it, the elite competition is what countires want to win, this is where reputations are made and the level and quality of hockey are judged.

I am all for junior hockey and it is critical to bring juniors along but this can be done at club, national and hemisphere level (probably more in the northern than southern), as games exist at all these levels that can help junior players take their game to the next level, without having to travel half way around the world.

Hamish

Hamish,

UWH in New Zealand has debated the issue of Juniors since the first comp in 1991. For the sport to develop we have to have goals for the players to acheive and making the Worlds in the Junior Grade is a great goal them to asipre to. For the sport to continue to grow we must foster international competition in the junior grades.

Retaining the players is about setting them the right goals. Ultimately which Junior prayer should have a goal to make the Senior side and the Junior side is a stepping stone on the road to making the senior team.

The issue about whether the Juniors and Masters are at the Elite Worlds is a different question and comes down to available pool time etc and has been the main negative comment against juniors participating. If the 2006 Worlds CHampionship used all the avalible pool time at night then the competition could have been 8 days as prescribed in the rules manual not 11.

Another possibility is that the we have an Age Group (Masters/ Juniors) Worlds tacked on to Elite Qualifying tournaments and the World Championships be only for the say top 16 countries (Men and Women) after qualifying from European, Southern Hemisphere and perhaps an new Asian/ Americas Championship. With 7 countries qualifying from Euro's, 5 from SHC, 2 from Asia and 2 from the Americas

NO.

that means the same team, ie the same team of players in a given year has to fork out for 2 major international tournaments in the same year which is NOT doable, OR the same team has to stay the same in back to back years which stifles development of new players and again is unachievable.

that was a big no-no for the cmas games, if you'll remember, the whole qualifying thing.

if it ever comes to that, wait until we have enough teams to justify it at least... there are only 2 teams competing in the southern hemisphere in any case.

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it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench

I Understand that juniors is a stepping stone to elite level, but what i am not sure of is the actual return to the sport of including the juniors in a worlds competition.

If we think of each tournement a junior intends as an investment in their future does the worlds make sense, assuming uwh players are not made of money?

To attend these championships from the southern hemisphere a player requires 6000-7000 thousand dollars (2500 pounds, 4000 euro). For the same money they could compete in a number of regional tournements against opposition that would be superior to many of the junior teams competing at worlds.

For the same investment these players could get more pool time, better games and more targetted coaching. In addition, as each event would be cheaper the whole junior program could be more inclusive, meaning that you are investing in your best juniors rather than just the ones who can afford to travel.

Hamish,

What is the return to the tournament including Masters at Worlds? Its not just Juniors its all age groups but I think your issue is not intertaional participation its the loss of Junior players.

Reading into what you have written the issue seems to me that you don't have coaching and development of Juniors at a local (Australian State) level and the international participation comes at an expense to development.

In NZ we have the competition that grows the players with coaching etc. We have the schools programme currently with 720 registered players between 13-18 years as well as an U18 interzone Tournament for the top 80 boys and and 80 girls where the selection for the New Zealand U18/19 squads (approx 20 players in each) are confirmed. Our problems with sustaining our growth is the availablilty of pool space and coaches.

Sitting below this is a few Mini UWH programmes for 10-12 years of varing success with approximately 300 players.

Solutions
The solution is hard work to grow your player base then the international side is the first goal for people to attain on the way to the Senior Side. You need to develop a vision and then some goals along the way to reach it.

I would look at developing junior programmes in each state leading into a state championship. From here you can select a state squad (to go through a selection proces) to compete in your Nationals in January.

I played in three southern hemisphere comps in the junior ranks as well as the junior tour back in 98 which was effectively the same thing and I had a great time and luckily had accommodating parents who funded the whole thing. Also I was lucky enough to be attending comps which all had three teams (though in 99 New Zealand didn't come, but the french did instead). Also, I was playing during the U21s experiment, which served its purpose well I think as a stepping stone to the senior teams, at the time when there were fairly entrenched seniors teams. I didn't get picked for the senior teams for those comps despite getting the MVP in Durban in 1999 in the U18s, in Rotorua in 2001 in the U19s and in Hobart 2003 in the U21s. Coming from the humble ACT (not particularly noted for its hockey) it was an invaluable experience to get to play with good players against good opposition.

So as I see it there is value in having international comps for juniors as player development, but the southern hemis (or trans tasman if the south africans aren't coming anymore) do this just fine (or the europeans champs and whatever the americans and canadians do... play each other and maybe columbia I guess). The cost involved in traveling to the opposite hemisphere to play obviously inferior opposition just so you can say "we are the junior champions of the world" is stupid.

Perhaps not stupid.

I understand Tristan's perspective - underwater hockey in New Zealand is booming particular in the junior area. They have the numbers to make an international junior team viable, as well as the funding, and it fits in nicely with their junior development program.

On the other hand, other countries (I'll use Australia as an example), do not have a national junior development program, despite efforts from States such as Tasmania. Therefore they don't have the participants or the funding to make it viable.

For these countries, a biannual international is sustainable (such as the Trans Tasmans). Another thing I have noticed, particularly with the Australian team, is when the kids reach their peak as a junior (obviously at 17-18) it coincides with their final years of school, so (often due to parental pressure) they opt out of the comp in favour of focussing on their studies.

My view is that until other countries establish successful junior development programmes like what New Zealand has, a junior worlds tournament is not sustainable as the teams are continually fluctuating in both attendence and standard. Yes, that sucks if you're a kiwi, so how can we as an international sport start to improve the situation with junior development? What services and supoprt can we get from CMAS or for that matter WACA?

I know Tristan is happy to show off what NZ has established and pass on tips and advice. And I'm certainly looking forward to seeing it all in August when I head over there. Perhaps its something that Australia should set its sights on over the next 5 years... perhaps at the 2012 Worlds Australia can win all 5 Gold medals on offer

i dont think NZ is in any position to preach.

there is still a big problem with drop-off of players despite the large numbers of schools players.

i think NZ is better off staying with the shc and tt comps for juniors every second year. if the junior teams want to do something in the wolds years then there is always the opportunity to have an internal tour as there was in 96 and 98.

i went through the junior program from 96-98 playing in the u20-u21 teams, never attended a worlds until i was in the senior team, but i still think i got a lot out of my time in the juniors... BUT my time in the juniors was relatively cheap, and im thankful it was.

all the good work going into the schools players etc in nz could still have useful outlets for far cheaper price if we just stuck to shc and tt. internal tours in even years could then benefit from using current elite players to help coach... its the pool of elite players where our coaches seem to be coming from and this lets them get some time with the younger players.

we could still have aussie invites to tours like that as they're cheap and close for states like tassie.

i think we should be having competitions but staying in our own back yard where it's cheap and we have resources, ie regional level teams that ould be better competition for our juniors anyway.

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it's more polite on the grating than on the subs bench